Legal 4WD Modifications - QLD & NSW [Archive] (2024)

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Brett1907

13-02-2007, 11:25 AM

Hi everyone, there has been a lot of info on here about what you can and can't do to your 4WD. Different people have been told MANY different things by people in positions of authority.

Following what has been posted, and after a PM from Igutso, I have spoken to all the people I know who seem to know the business. The main informants are the guys from 'Stuarts Tyre Centre - Nerang' and 'Gold Coast 4x4 Accessories - ARB'. Between them they deal with all concievable requests regarding wheel/suspension/driveline modifications. Here is what they told me.

These restrictions apply to passenger and commercial vehicles.

TYRES:

You may only change the rolling DIAMETER of the wheel/tyre combo by a maximum of 15mm. That is increase or decrease!
There is no room for negotiation. If you have changed this diameter by more that 15mm your car is deemed to be UNROADWORTHY!!

SUSPENSION:

You may only increase/decrease your suspension by no more than 2in/50mm. (If decrease then lowest point must be more than 100mm from the road while vehicle is loaded.)

This measurement is supposed to coincide with a modification of no more than 1/3 of the standard bump stop height. Problem is no one knows (even the RTA/QLD Transport) exactly how to measure this.

Also, any form of lengthened or drop shackles are also outright illegal.

BODY BLOCKS:

Are ILLEGAL!!!! You may be told that you can do them, you may even get an engineer to sign off on them (about $1600 cost). You WON"T be able to get a transport inspector to put his name to it. The problem is that regardless of the vehicle being safe you are not going to find an inspector who is willing to put their rear end on the line. Cause if you end up rolling your vehicle you can sue him for allowing you to drive an unsafe/unroadworthy vehicle.

What is that you say? I live in NSW so these laws don't apply to me! I've got BAD news for you!!

NSW are about to adopt these very laws. That is if they haven't signed off already. (Was supposed to happen in January)

Now for the Uppercut.....

If you have a six inch suspension lift with 2 inch body lift and run 38in rubber, and have it approved under the old laws you are going to have to change it.

Thats right, iy doesn't matter if you have a certificate from the RTA to say your 4WD is ok, you are going to have to make it comply with the NEW laws. And you can't trick them by returning it to legal for the inspection and then putting all the good gear in later. THEY HAVE YOUR REGO NUMBER! They can call up your details and issue you with a yellow canary on the spot. Go get a trailer/tow truck to get your rig home.

If you have a competition rig you can get special permits to allow restricted access to public roads during competition.

This info has come from people who deal in tyres and modifications on a daily basis. The ARB boys have tried to get body blocks and drop shackles approved. They have got the engineering certificates but no one at QT will put their name to it so they couldn't get the modifications approved.

I am sorry if this upsets people. IT SURE AS HELL UPSETS ME!!!

I have put this on to add to the knowledge base of this site. I have learnt so much about fishing/camping/4WDing since joining I want to try and help everyone who has helped me, and those newbies who appear every other day.

Brett

Wahoo

13-02-2007, 12:21 PM

damn thats not good
so what will happen with us that has spent big $$$ on mods and $$$ on getting the 4bs passed at the engineers 18months ago, will they give us our $$$$ back?

thats just like saying, yes you can spend big $$$ on a 45000l pool and then 12 months down the track they turn around and say ohh no you cant have that,

not good news thou

Daz

ohh and thanx for the heads up

GBC

13-02-2007, 03:01 PM

2" body lift blocks in my hilux are legal, and did go over the pits in Brisbane, and I do have a certificate that must stay with the vehicle at all times, which is signed by a QDOT inspector.

Can they reneg?

Do they have to inform me?

Kleyny

13-02-2007, 09:42 PM

GBC,
no they can't re-neg. unless they change the legislation

Brett,
if you follow the correct procedures and use the right parts they have to sign off on your body lift.
the procedure is: get a modification application, fill it out telling them exactly what you have done, send it in to the head office in Brisbane, they approve it or reject it, then book it in for an Inspector to look at it( it costs around $60), they insure the job and parts are the same as what you submitted to the head office (which was approved by their engineers).

how do i know? i had to go through it all to get my buggy approved.

Neil

Fat Chilli

13-02-2007, 11:44 PM

Here's some light reading on this topic - it's from the source (QT), not ARBull Sh_t

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eb57c508de5dea8/Modification_jan05v2.pdf

and Body Lifts which are LEGAL! are covered in the below link: AIS Information Sheet 18, page 12. = 50mm with a mod cert. Suspension Mods are covered on page 16.

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/ebd3dc0f27ec527/Pdf_veh_stds_ais_codeofpractice_section3d_feb2004. pdf

This is a TOYO tyre document, but it outlines every states Tyre and Wheel requirements. It's very informative.

http://www.toyo.com.au/TechInfoPDFs/Alternative%20Wheels%20&%20Tyres%20%20-%20Regulations.pdf

Happy reading.

Brett1907

14-02-2007, 07:09 AM

Daz, they don't care how much you spent. It sucks!!!
For example (slightly removed from the topic though), the Australian Design Rules were changed in 1992. Doesn't sound too bad, but it meant thet the Subaru Brumby no longer complied. It wasn't worth it for Subaru to change their manufacturing process to meet the new rules, as a result no new brumbies were delivered to Australia after that.
About the pool though, they are making it hard on the Gold Coast. Still considering making full covers mandatory... Very Expensive!!

GBC, Neil is right. They can't reneg unless they change legislation, which they did in July last year.

Neil, you said in your post that they will either approve or reject it, that means they don't have to approve it.

GBC & Neil, did you get the mods approved after July 2006? If so who were your inspectors????? I and a lot of people would be interested to know, including a number of 4WD sales/service centres on the Gold Coast.

Fat Chilli, easy with the put down on ARB!! I do not work for them but they did do me a great deal on what I bought. The boys down here on the coast are good guys and are willing to give you their time and benefit of their experience for no charge. They could have told me they don't know, or not told me anything when I said the info was for a forum I'm on.
They were not the only port of call for me. Over the past year I have spoken to at least 5 different 4WD places on the Gold Coast and Brisbane. I have also spoken to a number of tyres shops AND Queensland Transport. I am also a new member of the Gold Coast 4WD Club and have gotten information from people in the club, some of whom compete and own 4WD shops.
They all told me the same as what I put in my original post!
Thank you for the links, I will read them today. The olny thing is that the Queensland regulations changed in July 2006, so the dates on these links look like old regulations.

Some more info or NSW, spoke to a mate of mine south of the border this morning. He is spewing!! NSW have adopted the QLD laws!! He doesn't have a 4WD, but this means he can't mini tub his XR6 Turbo ute now. And his mate who has just got an engineer to sign off may not get the car approved by the RTA.

Brett

Brett1907

14-02-2007, 07:21 AM

Fat Chilli, I just finished reading the relevant parts of the links you posted. Thank you for the information, but...

All the information I have found tells the same thing, that the laws changed in July last year. The fitting of body blocks will no longer be approved.

I and others on the site have found the Transport Departments to be full of incorrect, misleading and outdated information. This explains why they still have outdated info on their site.

I am not trying to put you down as I appreciate the time taken to do the research you have to find these sheets. If you come accross any other info please post it as I do want to modify my 'lux further and all the help I can get is appreciated.

Brett

murf

14-02-2007, 09:07 AM

Hi Brett

thanks for getting this info going

yes spewing, 15mm on tyres is absurd. The standard 4wd tyres that come with most new 4WDs are cheap road tyres to move the vehicles out of the yard and my replacement tyres (and yours) are approx 40mm increase :(.

I guess the tyre makers will go bust as most of the tyres on the shelf can no longer be used. Or will they get rich from replacing 1000s of illegal tyres?

I have only done a 40mm lift on the Lux so I scrape in there :) I have 3 mates with lifting blocks, lenghtened shackles and 33s on thier Lux's they will be spewing more than me.

this is huge

Cheers Murf

bootyinblue

14-02-2007, 09:25 AM

Brett,

A very informative post there, however not all of it is accurate and correct.

I believe this post stems from a discusion IGUTSO had with Queensland Transport in relation to fitting larger tyres to a vehicle and the classification of passanger v's commercial vehicles.

I posted serveral times on that thread, both conveying my knowledge as a Police Officer and also the discussions I had with Queensland Transport Inspectors, of whom I work with weekly.

Bottom line is this,

You first must differentiate between a passanger vehicle as opposed to a commercial vehicle and this is not reflected in registration status as private or business, but rather number of seats, load capacity, tare weights etc.

If you have a commercial vehicle, you can stop right about here, as you are not permitted to perform modifications to your vehicle and maintain it as being road worthy. If you have a passanger vehicle then read on....

TYRES - 15mm is the maximum you can increase your tyres diameter and 26mm is maximum you can decrease your tyres diameter as stipulated on the manufactures placard. It is diameter and measured across the tyre at the stub axle height. It is not 'rolling diamter' as this is the circumference of the tyre.

BODY LIFTS - Can be approved in QLD after making application outlining the work to be performed. Maximum height is 50mm. Vehicle must go over pits and be issued with a compliance certificate/plate after work has been performed.

LEGISLATION/RETROSPECTIVE - Legislation in respect to motor vehicles is constantly changing, however if you are currently driving a registered, roadworthy and compliant vehicle on a road then any changes will not affect you unless its a matter of a safety issue. However, if you let your registration lapse, attempt to re register an unregistered vehicle or transfer your registration from another State then you may encounter some issues as you will need to aquire a 'roadworthy' in QLD or a 'Pink Slip' in NSW.

There are still vehicles getting around town which are not fitted with seat belts as when they rolled off the production line, there were no belts fitted. Those vehicles still comply with ADR and Legislation today. The Subaru Brumby you mentioned no longer complied with ADR's. That could well be right and Subaru decided it was not going to import any more vehicles due to cost of retooling or the like, but the currently registered Subaru's getting around did comply at the time and there is retrospective legislation to order them off the road.

Jeep had a similar problem when it bought out a range that included roof racks with, for want of a better description, driving lights attached to the front. They did not meet ADR, there was a quick panic before the bulb wattage was changed so now they are know as 'load limit lights' and were passed for inport to Australia.

I hope this helps clear some confusion about things, and as IGUTSO did, if you have a specific query then email me and I will get to the bottom of it. Oohh and yes, rod racks tubes which extend past the natural profile of your bullbar when not carrying rods are illegal too..... be warned....LOL

murf

14-02-2007, 09:42 AM

So I have been driving non road worthy vehicles for 23 years. :( oops

15mm up or down for tyres in NSW? Booty you must have to do a lot of paperwork with this rule:)

Cheers Murf

Brett1907

14-02-2007, 10:02 AM

Thanks bootyinblue, yes this does stem from IGUTSO's original post.

Can you confirm whether or not the regulations were changed last year as my 4WD club were notified?

Sorry about the slip up with tyres, I did mean the diamater. What I meant by 'Rolling Diameter' was the diameter of the tyre when on road inflated to manufacturers speceifications. Not the diameter of the tyre if it is lying its side. Is this the way they are supposed to be measured?

Yes, if a car is imported and meets the ADRs of that time it may remain on the road after the ADRs change. However I have seen modified vehicles, with prior approvals, defected because the regulations relating to those particular mods had changed. These were on vehicles that were carefully maintained and the owners went to great lengths to ensure their vehicles were legal. And my wife has been defected for things by a police officer, and when we took the car to a QT inspection station (without changing anything!!) they said there was nothing wrong with the car and she shouldn't have been defected.

With regard to Body Blocks, who can I speak to about getting these approved? Every enquiry I have made at 4WD shops and QT have given the same answers as I have posted above.

On another topic bootyinblue, what is the QT and Police stance on aftermarket superchargers on vehicles in QLD? I am looking into the Bullet Supercars kit for my 'lux.

On the point of Rod Bars, you're right! But they are completely illegal in NSW, rods or no rods.

Can you help out with clearing the rest up as it is still confusing to me when being told different things by different people who are all involved in the modifying/inspecting system. Thanks for your info so far.

Brett

bootyinblue

14-02-2007, 11:00 AM

Aftermarket superchargers can be fitted to vehicles so long as they comply with the regulations. This is where the installer has the onus to install the equipment in such a way as to ensure it will pass inspection. At the completion either the installer, if he is accredited with QT or QT themselves will inspect the modification and in the case of a supercharger attach a plate to the engine bay with the code LA3. If the installer does not install the equipment in such a way as it passes inspection with QT then you always have redress under the Sale Of Goods Act. PM me if you require help with that, but I covered it previously in threads where boats havent performed as expected and more recently with the 3? tonne trailer that should have been 4? tonne.

Body lifts - You need to complete a modification application form and have it approved prior to undertaking the work. Or you can contact
Queensland Transport
Policy Advice
PO Box 673
Fortitude Valley QLD 400

Would be interested to know more about the vehicles you are aware of that have been defected due to regulation changes? Perhaps they did not pass 'another' test.

What items was your wife was defected on and what type of defect was issued (minor, major etc).

Brett1907

14-02-2007, 11:26 AM

Thanks bootyinblue.

So I should check with Bullet Supercars to ensure their kit complies, and make sure the mechanic doing the install is aware of the requirements.

I will pass the body block info onto the people who will be very interested. I know ARB boys will be very interested as they have had so many dramas (even when signed off by an engineer) that they don't do the body lifts anymore.

A question... I you get approval prior to beginning the work and follow ALL of the regulations/requirements are you guaranteed to get it passed. I ask this because that has been when lifts have been knocked back.

I honestly don't recall what the defects were, it was quite a while ago. I do know that the vehicles had previously been inspected by QT (Bundall depot from memory) and passed.

My wife was defected for window tint (police said it was too dark) and unroadworthy pedals (aftermarket sport pedals). The police didn't have a light metre and didn't even ask her to get out of the car. They defected the pedals with just a look through the drivers window.
The QT light meter showed that the windows were on the limit but legal and that the pedals were installed correctly and complied. The reason we didn't fight the tickets was we couldn't 'prove' that we didn't change the car between the defect notices and the QT inspection.

By the way, PLEASE don't look too closely to some of the 4WDs at the next M&G. Hopefully you will be off duty anyway. LOL

GBC

14-02-2007, 12:58 PM

You can download the mod application off the net.

I stated that the lift blocks were a "proprietary" item with crush tubes inserted, and the reason I needed them was to install a long range tank - in my case it was bona fide (some tanks require a body lift)

They will check the bolts (hi tens) and torque, but cannot check for tubes - there are two schools of thought about tubes (good vs not so good). Different assessors will want crush tubes and others don't ask.

Just bear in mind that your vehicle had better be roadworthy in every other respect when going over the pits, as it will get a full going over all the machinery tests.

Mine was done at the Logan branch and it was very thorough.

Having said that I can now comfortably run 33's offroad in an ifs lux.

Kleyny

14-02-2007, 02:22 PM

the legislation changes in july had nothing to do with the Vehcile Safety Standards legislation) which all the mods come under. (IN QLD)
only the legislation for loads, weights, widths and lenghts ect. changed.

neil

Wahoo

14-02-2007, 06:02 PM

yep no worries Brett.
cheers for all the info fellas

Daz

Brett1907

14-02-2007, 08:54 PM

Looks like I'll be speaking to QT again tomorrow. I will post what I find out.

Whats the bet it differs from everything posted in these subjects so far. LOL

Brett

Fat Chilli

16-02-2007, 10:13 AM

Fat Chilli, I just finished reading the relevant parts of the links you posted. Thank you for the information, but...

All the information I have found tells the same thing, that the laws changed in July last year. The fitting of body blocks will no longer be approved.

I and others on the site have found the Transport Departments to be full of incorrect, misleading and outdated information. This explains why they still have outdated info on their site.

I am not trying to put you down as I appreciate the time taken to do the research you have to find these sheets. If you come accross any other info please post it as I do want to modify my 'lux further and all the help I can get is appreciated.

Brett

Apology accepted :D , maybe.

Brett - Also not a put down either, but with regard to the advise from your club associates, the ones who also compete. I too am a member of several 4x4 clubs and was a founding member of a 4x4 club on the GC, I also compete regularly (time/work permitting). This; however, doesn't mean I know everything, in fact far from it. Learning all the time.
Just don't take everything stated as gospel until all avenues (i.e. Police, QT, Engineers) have been exhausted, as interpretatations and understandings vary.

On the ARB note, yeah I shouldn't have put them down given that I don't know them, but having owned number 4 of 6 totally custom ARB built 4x4's in the past I have developed a biased opinion of the overall company (not the franchisees). And yep, my 4x4 has ARB products on it, even though they were originally developed by another company - ARB Air Locker (Roberts Diff Lock).

Good luck with your BL, did you find anyone to assist?

Brett1907

16-02-2007, 12:21 PM

Ok, Disengaged brain, pulled finger out of a@$e and trying again!

I WAS WRONG WRONG WRONG

All of the info given to me by 4WD shops, clubs and the QT inspectors before today was total BS.

I went into the Bundall QT Inspection centre today and had an indepth and very informative talk with one of the inspectors. I don't remember his name but he was EXTREMELY helpful, and even told me what to check in regards to the suspension I already have installed and what to look for to ensure the aftermarket tail lights I have comply with ADR's.

OK, with suspension.

I was right about that. 50mm max without approval and engineering certificate. BUT make sure they adjust your 'Load proportioning valve' once the vehicle is raised. This is what shares the breaking force between the front and rear brakes. If you lift the car the valve MUST be adjusted, however, somenewer vehicles are self adjusting. Just ask the guys doing it and if they can't answer whether it needs to be done or not, go elsewhere.

BODY LIFTS

If you get approval prior to the fitting of body blocks, and the modification AND the rest of the car pass the final inspection you can get them done. The following issues still stand though....

Can be difficult to get it approved, ARB have had an application at QT for months with no answer.

There is a national code which QLD hasn't signed yet, and the inspectors don't know what exactly will be legal/illegal once it is in place. The inspector I spoke to has heard rumours through the QT that Victoria (who have adopted the new code) are recalling vehicles with prior approval and reneging! This is unsabstatiated, but he found it disturbing.

This thread has shown just how much wrong information is out there. Even though I have been proven wrong on some of it I won't be carrying out the body lift. It is just too uncertain as to whether it will be approved (even though it is legal) and whether or not it would remain approved.

I am sorry if I offended anyone in voicing what I though to be accurate information. I didn't intend to. Thank you to everyone who posted their experience and the information they found. It has been very helpful.

Brett

Fat Chilli

17-02-2007, 01:36 AM

You haven't offened anyone, at least not me 8-) I had to go through the same learning curve to discover the required info. Iif you still want some 4x4 shop options, ones I know have succesfully installed certified Body Lift, send me a PM. I know of a few, one of them is also an Engineer.

bootyinblue

17-02-2007, 11:58 AM

No worries at all Brett,

I am only to help with queries regarding legislation and its imterpretation, both on here and on the side of the road. Between me and another 'unamed poster' on this site who is actually a QT Inspector glad me managed to get most of it squared away.

Perhaps the delay in the body lift approval is to do with waiting to sign the new agreement? I will did around about vehicles which have previously been approved and now be recalled for inspection. I find it hard to believe though in both a logistic and legislative sense.

Kleyny

17-02-2007, 06:34 PM

i also find it very hard to believe that the approved vehicles can be recalled.
the body lift modification and lots of other modifications are outside the very narrow legislation in a sense. therefore they can only be approved by a QT Inspector. (in the legislation it says any modification can be approved by QT.)
eg Harley look alikes, cobra replicas, westfield racers, Manx buggies etc. all fall out of the legislation and need to be approved by QT only. ( to fall inside the legislation)

i hope that made sense

Brett. if ARB have not heard from the QT Engineers for months it possibly because they are asking for something out of the ordinary. (like a blanket approval for their body lift for example)
if you were to send in an application for a body lift on behalf of yourself the reply would be allot quicker.

neil

Brett1907

19-02-2007, 08:31 AM

Thanks again everyone, I hope this thread will help others as well as me.

It just S$%Ts me to tears that there is so much misinformation around. And that what one inspector will appove another won't (the crushed tube inserts).

I don't think I will do a body lift at the moment, but I am still looking at the supercharger and have found someone that may be able to do the mods to my rear bar so I can recess it into the tub body. It won't affect my lighting heights, and QT told me I can put a slimline plate on the back as long as it is visible and has the correct lighting.

Brett

bootyinblue

19-02-2007, 05:58 PM

Brett,

Have you priced a slim

As for tyres in Qld the new code is the maximum you can modify your car and the states are free to set stricter standards, it seems Qld will never allow more than 15mm increase. Approved Bodylifts are legal unless you have airbags in which case approval is impossible.
The national code its been coming in next month for over a year in NSW, QLD don’t seem ain a hurry to move at all .

Brett1907

20-02-2007, 08:58 AM

bootyinblue, I haven't priced one for years. Don't know how much they are now but will look into it when the time comes to make a definite decision. I have to talk to the guy who can do the mods. He builds sliders & bars for some of the guys in the GC4WD Club, so he knows what he is doing.

Charlie, are you sure about the airbags? The QT guy I spoke to this time was looking at my 'lux (I pointed it out to him) and said nothing about air bags preventing a body lift.

Thanks again.

Brett

bootyinblue

20-02-2007, 11:12 AM

WHOA... We have got a new player in this thread

As for tyres in Qld the new code is the maximum you can modify your car and the states are free to set stricter standards, it seems Qld will never allow more than 15mm increase. Approved Bodylifts are legal unless you have airbags in which case approval is impossible.
The national code its been coming in next month for over a year in NSW, QLD don’t seem ain a hurry to move at all .

Charlie - Not sure what 'new code' you are talking about, but the current code does set minimum and maximum limits on tyre modifications which are clearly stated. I guess a body lift to be legal it has to be approved, havent seen too many unapproved lifts that are legal. And airbags such as Polyride are acceptable components if fitted prior to the lift and factored in to the application for the body lift.

Brett - Had a bit of a play around with PPQ.com and the cheapest plates I could make in a 100mm slimline format are going to set you back $395 to buy.

Charlie

20-02-2007, 06:13 PM

Sorry I mean't the safety airbag that pops out of your steering wheel if you crash,these make a bodylify or bullbar illegal.
The new national code allowing 50mm bigger tyres was very well received by QLD 4WDrivers but it doesn't appear QLD transport are going to climb on board with it,as you say max 15mm increase is the law.
Regards Charlie

Kleyny

20-02-2007, 07:14 PM

Sorry I mean't the safety airbag that pops out of your steering wheel if you crash,these make a bodylify or bullbar illegal.
Regards Charlie

Where did you get this info from????????
you can buy airbag compatible bullbars for allot of the 4X4s and cars on the market.
from what you are saying they are still illegal. it doesn't make sense.
if you get your body lift approved in the correct manner it can't be illegal.
i am sure that the QT engineers would consider this when looking at your application.

Brett. have already got personalised plates?
if so you maybe able to apply to get slim lines allot cheaper. (my thoughts are you have already purchased the rights to that plate and your just changing the type of plate.) but i could be wrong, it has been known in the past;D ;D ;D

Neil

chisel

20-02-2007, 09:39 PM

I don't want to send this thread off on a tangent but ... obviously there are a lot of 4x4s out there with tyres that are technically illegal/unroadworthy. I'd venture to say a very high percentage of older 4x4s have bigger tyres. But, assuming you have tyres that are only mildly illegal (say 30mm increase), what are the chances that either
(a) A police officer will fine you for having an unroadworthy car just because your tyres are larger
(b) An insurance company will reject a claim based on an unroadworthy car just because tyres are larger.
Are there any other scenarios which might cause trouble?

I've heard a number of stories of people making successful insurance claims regardless of such mods (larger tyres) and I've also heard that insurance companies can't refuse a claim unless they prove the modification contributed to the accident. Of course, the larger the claim (eg. crashed into new bmw) the more likely the insurance company is to push the issue I suppose.

(Note: I run tyres that are legal - ie. less than 15mm increase).

bootyinblue

20-02-2007, 11:48 PM

Sorry I mean't the safety airbag that pops out of your steering wheel if you crash,these make a bodylify or bullbar illegal.
Regards Charlie

Ohhh Charlie, where did you hear such crap from? Airbag compliant bullbars have been on the market as long as ARS fitted vehicles have. Also when you submit your application for a vehicle modification (ie body lift) items such as interference with airbags and the like is taken into consideration.

CHISEL - There might be a lot of 4wds running around with 'mildy illegal' tyres, but I bet I have access to more ticketbooks than 4wd's!! Nah seriously, tyres which fall outside the modification limits do render the vehicle as 'non compliant' with the TORUMS. As viewed by the insurance company, a 'non compliant' vehicle should not be on the road, therefore should not have been involved in the traffic accident, therefore should not be in a position to make a claim, therefore said insurance company should not pay out the claim..... Get my drift.... I have seen it happen!

Another scenario which might cause trouble could be when I was living in another State and also in a different profession. I was running 33 Mud Terrains under my Pajero. Looked great, chics dug it, but I couldnt turn left real well!!

Fat Chilli

21-02-2007, 12:39 AM

Chisel - re: Insurance, I'm no expert and others may either work in the industry or have greater or first hand experience, but if the component, e.g. tyres are or could have been a contributing factor to the incident then they will most certainly refuse to accept the claim.

Re: the Bullbar and Airbag questions: Again to the best of my knowledge (my clause :-X )

Bullbars and airbags, needing an air bag compatable / compliant bullbars, I think this depends on the location of the impact sensors to deploy airbags, some vehicles locate them toward in the area of the crumple zone. These impact sensors are accerometers which sense the rate of deceleration. A microprocessor in the ACM (Airbag Control Module) monitors the impact sensor signal, which using a pre- programmed decision algorithm determines when the deceleration rate indicates an impact severe enough to deploy the airbags. - Bullbars for these vehicles generally have crumble zones included in the bars design, so as not to effect the manufacturers sensor specifications.

Other vehicles, e.g. my Jeep, don't use forward crumple zone sensors as they don't have the same design, they use an accelerometer located on the floor plan of the transmission tunnel, the same as above, but bullbars for these vehicle do not need specially designed crumple zone compatable bullbars, as the bar does not affect the capability of the airbag to deploy.

If you want more info I can find out from a mate who's old business card position title was - "Crash Test Dummy Technician", he worked for Autoliv. What a title 8-)
He used to conduct the crash testing for vehicles and components prior to ADR approval.

Reel Hard

21-02-2007, 06:22 AM

Those crash test dummies wouldn't be able to get insurance. They are the worst drivers I have ever seen.

Brett1907

21-02-2007, 08:13 AM

Charlie, The SRS Airbags only impact on the aproval of body blocks and bull bars so far as to specify the design. So long as you follow the specifications they are ok (remember my initial info said body blocks were illegal). ARB, TJM, ECB and others all make air bag compatible bull bars which comply with the ADRs. I have checked this with my insurance broker!

The new code which charlie is talking about is the same one the QT inspector told me about, it isn't in place as yet. He wasn't aware of the exact limits it will impose on tyres/mods. To the best of his knowledge, the tyre size limits will NOT change in QLD. He was pretty sure, in fact, that the national code instigates the same limits we have in QLD.

Neil, no I haven't got personalised plates yet. I'm going to get them for all my work utes eventually anyway. Thanks for the tip on how to get them at the right place.

chisel, the insurance companies do not have to prove the tyres contributed to the crash. If they are illegal then your car is unroadworthy. Part of the PDS of all insurance companies is that yopur vehicle must be well maintained and roadworthy. This can be extrapolated to mean that EVERYTHING on the car MUST comply with relevant regulations. Also, that the vehicle MUST be kept safe by proper maintenance/servicing. That is why I get ALL my utes (even the old brumby) serviced by a qualified mechanic, running a business I must provide my staff with properly maintained vehicles or I am liable if they have an accident. Also, if you have a legal modification, and they believe it may have contributed to the crash, then it is up to YOU to prove that it didn't. This has all been checked with my insurance broker.

Its the same with QT. They don't have to prove the car is illegal, you have to prove it is legal.

Now to getting tickets, and this has come fromt he mouth of a QT inspector.

Since the fitment of oversize tyres on passenger 4WD vehicles hasn't obviously contributed to road accidents and/or fatalities, this illegal modification isn't being actively targeted. Now, this doesn't mean you can put 45inch Baja muds on your car. If the tyres look OBVIOUSLY over size, or the car appears to being driven in an unsafe manner (be it as a result of driver or tyre/suspension flex) you will be pulled over and defected. I don't know the true police stance on this subject, but by speaking to a couple of friends of mine that are cops I have this to say.

If you are driving in a safe and responsible manner, and have a car that has some minor modifications that fall outside the regs (30mm increase on tyres, window tint a little darker than T35 etc) you won't get pulled over. My understanding is that the police aren't too interested in those people.

Hope that didn't upset you bootyinblue, just going by what my friends have said.

Brett

chisel

21-02-2007, 08:25 AM

Well, if it is so easy for insurance companies to refuse a claim, why does it so rarely happen? Do we have some recorded cases of it happening? I have actively been monitoring a number of forums for discussions like this and have never actually heard anyone complain of having an insurance claim rejected. On the other hand I've heard of a number of claims that have been successful regardless of the unroadworthiness of the vehicle (based on the tyres).

Personally I won't take the risk - but a friend of mine (who is probably reading this) is about to fit considerably larger tyres and is interested in the discussion.

Brett1907

21-02-2007, 08:48 AM

chisel, I have never heard of a claim being granted when the insurance company were aware the vehicle was illegal. Normally an insurance assessor isn't aware of the exact tyre sizes just by reading the side wall, and the manufacturers plate doesn't state the diameter of the tyre, just the same as the side walls.

Calculating the diameter from the tyre sizes on the side wall is a VERY inacurate method. That was also something that came up about tyre sizes when I spoke to the QT inspecor. You can get 4 tyres with the same side wall sizes (265/75/17) from 4 different manufacturers and the diamater will be different for all 4. This makes it extremely difficult to enforce this particlar regulation.

I have heard of vehicles having insurance claims rejected due to tyre size, I have an insurance broker for my work utes and have heard it from him. He deals with thousands of cars each year. He also has NEVER heard of an insurance company granting an insurance claim if they were AWARE of the unroadworthyness of a vehicle, it is more likely the inspector didn't check the tyres too hard.

Some vehicles out there that look legal may not be. For instance, the standard tyre fitted to a 100 series landcruiser would be illegal on a current model hilux. But if you saw the hilux driving down the street with that size tyre on you wouldn't think twice. I challenge anyone to look at a tyre and tell me just by site whether it is within the 15mm tolerance. If they say they can (& they're not HUGE muds) then they're a liar. For instance, you put a set of 17inch alloys with 32 inch tyres on a new 'lux with a 2inch suspension lift and it looks perfectly legal, even to a QT inspector. Granted he didn't look at the side wall numbers, he was more interested in knowing if they were load rated for the vehicle. They are load rated for the vehicle.

Brett

chisel

21-02-2007, 09:11 PM

Yes, I agree... more likely the insurance inspector didn't notice. I doubt they'd even take a 2nd glance if the tyres were 30mm larger on an 800mm overall diameter. Unless they were much wider tyres I very much doubt the difference would get picked up by anyone, police and insurance inspectors included.

So, back to my point. Yes they might technically be illegal but ... is there cause for concern? Some clearly think not and are happy with larger tyres ... or perhaps more likely they are oblivious to the laws.

Do you have any detail on the claims that were rejected? I'm just curious to know if it was only the tyres which make the car unroadworthy, or other things.

Charlie

21-02-2007, 09:34 PM

"Charlie, The SRS Airbags only impact on the aproval of body blocks and bull bars so far as to specify the design. So long as you follow the specifications they are ok (remember my initial info said body blocks were illegal). ARB, TJM, ECB and others all make air bag compatible bull bars which comply with the ADRs. I have checked this with my insurance broker!"

Fair enougth,I was told it was illegal but if the DOT are happy to sign off in writting that good.
I'm not having a go at anyone this whole thing drives me crazy you try to do the right thing and the authorties cannot even give you the right answer.
Regards Charlie

Brett1907

21-02-2007, 10:26 PM

Sorry chisel, he couldn't go into specifics. But a mate of mine in the GC4WD club told me about a competition a couple of years ago. The cops/QT were parked on the road near the competition defecting spectators 4WDs on their way to the comp. He saw otherwise legal looking vehicles defected for wheels. This is not a regular occurence, but it did happen.

No sweat, no one here would think you were having a go. This is the reason other threads, then this one were started. There are a few of us on here who have been told more than a few different things by people who should know. My initial post, based on a lot of research (including QT) was wrong on a few topics. Thanks to the help by a few others I think we have just about got it right. If you want to do some mods PM some of the people who have offered to help.

Brett

Fat Chilli

21-02-2007, 11:29 PM

Sorry chisel, he couldn't go into specifics. But a mate of mine in the GC4WD club told me about a competition a couple of years ago. The cops/QT were parked on the road near the competition defecting spectators 4WDs on their way to the comp. He saw otherwise legal looking vehicles defected for wheels. This is not a regular occurence, but it did happen.

This also happened at a Comp I attended last year, plenty of vehicles got defect notices.

I just wish it was one set of rules for all States, mods that are acceptable in Vic aren't in QLD and visa versa....just dumb, given that they all utilise the DOTARS, ADRs etc.

Brett1907

22-02-2007, 10:33 AM

Might have been the same comp. Was it at Landcruiser Park?

Brett

bootyinblue

22-02-2007, 11:48 AM

Nah... doesnt upset me at all. I often talk about failing another 'test' and that is why they end up with a fist full of tickets...

Fat Chilli

22-02-2007, 11:27 PM

Nah... doesnt upset me at all. I often talk about failing another 'test' and that is why they end up with a fist full of tickets...

Booty - what was the above post in relation to?

Brett - yep, it was at cruiser.

I know I won't spend a cent on a mod unless I know for sure that it will only increase the safety and road handling of the vehicle. My life and my occupants lives are far to valuable to skip on for dodgy mods.
I say target the ricers more, they shit me and kill people all the time with their antics; e.g. in the cab on the way back from the airport tonight I saw 4 ricers dragging on the highway (near Yatla), they were constantly slowing down and speeding up against each other. They nearly caused a van to run up the back of one of them, when they cut him off >:( . Would have reported them but couldn't read the plates.

bootyinblue

22-02-2007, 11:32 PM

Refering to Post #34 from Brett.

Sea-Dog

30-04-2007, 08:50 PM

Refering to Post #34 from Brett.

Hey Booty, are we talking about the "attitude test" ???

Eg. Show an attitude, and you fail the test, but win some tickets 8-)

Keep up the good work !

bootyinblue

30-04-2007, 08:56 PM

LOL...suprised this thread has made a re-appearance.

Spot on Seadog, everyones a winner in my books....literally!!

Sea-Dog

30-04-2007, 09:04 PM

Old threads get to make an occasional reappearance courtesy of the "Search" function.

Here's hoping we never meet in a "professional" capacity.

Not much chance though, I have around 1M k's under my belt with only 2 moving traffic violations.

1./ Not displaying "P" plates (very early in my driving history)

2./ Failure to adequately display vehicle Tare and Gross limits (Printed in large lettering in cab window, rather than on outside of door.)

Passed "attitude" test both times. ;D

bootyinblue

30-04-2007, 09:07 PM

Sensational to hear..... and people with decent driving records, seats in the upright position, stereos on low level and without a car load of mates get a fair bit of leeway.

Were you looking for some specific info about 4wd mods or just cruising?

Sea-Dog

30-04-2007, 09:47 PM

Thanks Booty,

Just started a thread with my Q's

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?p=612051#post612051

Cheers.

Brett1907

08-05-2007, 02:20 PM

It is good to see these old threads pop their head up from time to time. I have definately decided to put off any modifications for the time being. My wife says she needs a new car first, and a diamond ring (which I did promise her), and under the house built in...

Good thing I can pass the attitude test. It was the fact that I used to be silly behind the wheel when I was younger. Hooning and all that stuff. There is something about a short wheel base FJ40 going sideways for 100m or so that the police don't like, and now that I'm older and wiser (at least older) I agree.

I must admit that having a friendly attitude towards traffic police in the past, even when I was not treated likewise (that is when I had done nothing wrong, the officers were quite friendly with the sideways incident) probably saved me a few dollars over the years. Good thing too, cause Donna has found the diamond she wants, and the car, and those expensive bathroom fittings, and the media room furniture, and...

Brett

Sea-Dog

16-11-2007, 04:42 PM

Qld Transport website link for Light Vehicle Modifications.

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eb57c508de5dea8/Modification_jan05v2.pdf

Lowering or raising of vehicles
The road clearance of a fully laden vehicle must not be
less than 100mm measured at any part of the vehicle
other than the wheel rim or brake backing plates.
(This does not apply where a lesser clearance has been
specified by the manufacturer.)
When lowering or raising a vehicle body (front or rear),
the following additional restrictions are based on the
manufacturer's dimensions for the standard unmodified
vehicle while unladen:
• The ride height measured between the rubber bump
stop and the corresponding metal stop may be reduced
by no more than one third.
• The rebound travel measured between the rubber
rebound stop and the corresponding metal stop
(or the extension of the shock absorber for vehicles
without a rebound stop) may be reduced by no
more than one third.

• Coil springs are to remain in locating seats on full
suspension droop without forcibly being removed.
In addition, the normal relationship between the front
and rear suspension heights must not be unduly affected.
Replacement springs (shorter or taller) must have the
same or greater load capacity as the original springs.
Suspension coil springs must not be shortened by cutting
or heating. Leaf spring suspensions must not be raised
by the use of extended shackles, adjustable metal plates
or by placing the leaf springs to the opposite side of the
axle. If lowering blocks are used, they must be either
steel or aluminium.
Airbag or air pressurised shock absorber helper springs
may be fitted in addition to the original suspension.
However, replacing some or all of the suspension system
with an air or hydraulic suspension requires specific
approval.

According to my interpretation of the highlighted info - suspension travel can be increased without any particular limits.

Or am I reading incorrectly?

Kleyny

16-11-2007, 08:52 PM

Isn't it amazing how these old treads reappear every now and again.

Sea dog,
what you have found there is a pamphlet from Queensland Transport this is a "Guide only" pamphlet as it has some errors in it. like the part were you have been mislead on they forgot to put in the word RAISE it should read suspension height lowered or RAISED one third of original ride height.

you can find the correct information in the Code Of Practice (which is what Transport Inspectors and Roadworthy guys use when inspecting vehicles)
go to page 23 (items of rejection for suspension).

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/ebae1f09028863c/Pdf_veh_stds_ais_codeofpractice_section2_feb2004.p df

hope this has cleared it up for you

neil

ozscott

17-11-2007, 10:15 AM

None of the following is intended as legal advice.

I have worked in insurance litigation for about 18 years. I have acted for and against insurers more times than I care to remember in that time. All policies are different, but at the end of the day the commonwealth Insurance Contracts Act requires that the insurer's liability be reduced by the extent of any breach of the policy has contributed to the loss - for example to use an example that ended up being a celebrated authority an insurer had to pay 100% of the damage for its insured vehicle that had bald tyres but was hit from behind at a red light - it had legally been stationary.

It can get a bit murky however where the oversize wheels and tyre combination reduce the braking ability (ie extra weight and momentum of the wheels), and braking was a part of the accident that might have been avoided with better braking...I simply wrote to my insurer and told them what tyres I had fitted including the size and asked them to note the policy as an improvement to my vehicle.

Its always a risk from an insurance point of view having slightly oversize tyres. Having said that 31s on Rover does not look big and given its towing capacity (which impacts braking ability etc) its absurd that they are technically half an inch to an inch too big. I dont have a lot of sympathy for blokes who stick 34-36 in tyres on and think that thats ok for the road.

The other thing to remember is that manufacturers have various actual diametres for their tyres. For example a 235/70/16 Michellin XPC might have a rolling diameter that is 7mm less than the equivalent in Pirelli. So if you take the lhighest actual diameter in 245/70/16 and compare it to the lowest actual diameter tyre in say 265/70/16 may will see that you are either legal (or getting close to it), which is why its very difficult to prosecute for a posted size difference when only going up 2 sizes like this because what is the base mark to measure from....the vehicle manufacturer will never supply that only the metric designation of 245/70/16 etc....

I dont advocate that people go out and go up more than the 15mm difference, but again small increments over this are going to be very hard to prove because of the above variances. The bottom line to me is that if it looks too big it will attract the Police, and could well reduce braking ability and heighten the gearing so that you have less pulling power with boats etc and for town runs in particular worse economy.

Cheers

Leigh77

17-11-2007, 12:43 PM

According to my interpretation of the highlighted info - suspension travel can be increased without any particular limits.

Or am I reading incorrectly?

Technically you are correct, there are no limitations placed directly on the amount of suspension travel increase...but to increase suspension travel, you have to do all the mods that are commonly done and this is where the limitations come into play...to keep it legal you have to stay within the guidlines.

So indirectly there are limits.

Kleyny

20-11-2007, 04:38 PM

Technically you are correct, there are no limitations placed directly on the amount of suspension travel increase...but to increase suspension travel, you have to do all the mods that are commonly done and this is where the limitations come into play...to keep it legal you have to stay within the guidlines.

So indirectly there are limits.
I hope you are in NSW.
if you dont take my advice and you live in QLD if you get pulled over you may be open to get a fine.

why?? the law that you get fined under is vehicle safety standards and they directly talk about the code of practice. so if you are outside of whats in the code of pratice you are breaking the law.

neil

Leigh77

21-11-2007, 04:02 PM

I hope you are in NSW.
if you dont take my advice and you live in QLD if you get pulled over you may be open to get a fine.

why?? the law that you get fined under is vehicle safety standards and they directly talk about the code of practice. so if you are outside of whats in the code of pratice you are breaking the law.

neil

What advice did you give?

There is nothing mentioned about "suspension travel"...its all about raising or lowering a vehicles suspension, and this measurement is taken when the vehicle is at rest on flat ground. You can have as much suspension travel as you like, as long as the vehicle fits in with the "one third" guideline, and other modifications are approved.

My vehicle has been inspected (twice actually) and nothing was mentioned about the amount of suspension travel I had. They just checked the bodylift was blue-plated, and measured the bumpstop clearance. To be honest, the didnt even check what height the suspension lift is (it is a 2" lift). Oh, I do live in QLD too ::)

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